Tag Archives: proposition 8

Three of a kind: Jack Black, Newsweek and theologically liberal Christians

three-of-a-kindThe pro-“same-sex marriage” crowd is pretty angry about Proposition 8 passing in California.  They are doing everything possible to sway public opinion.  They may win, but the question is whether authentic Christians will hold fast to the truth. 

It is sad yet amusing to see such theoretically different sets of people in agreement about the “flaws” of the Bible:

  • Jack Black and other Hollywood stars create a video mocking Christians and the Bible(Side note: If you can watch the whole video, notice how the sodomy simulations all had woman in back instead of men.  That was obviously scripted for a reason.  Did they think using a guy would be too graphic?  It seemed kinda homophobic to me.)
  • Newsweek – “Opponents of gay marriage often cite Scripture. But what the Bible teaches about love argues for the other side.”  It was deeply biased logical fallacy-fest of pure advocacy that didn’t even pretend to offer a counterpoint. Among other things, it trots out the false comparison to black Civil Rights.  But of course, skin color is morally neutral and sexual behavior is not.  It also used the “Jesus didn’t say anything about homosexuality” line, which only has about seven serious logical errors
  • Theologically liberal / pro-gay theology Christians  — they’ve been doing this the longest, but it is most irritating with them because they claim the name of Christ.  At least Jack Black doesn’t pretend to be a Christian.

In short, we’ve got Bible lessons from non-believers.  So what will we do? 

Here’s my advice: Don’t get angry, get educated.  Or get angry and educated.  Are these people irritating and blasphemous?  Yep.  But we should use these current events to point people to the truth.  Just do like they did in the Book of Acts: Share the truth with those who are interested. 

For starters, respond to the shrimp / shellfish argument.  It is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to study the passages. I address five serious problems with it in Flaws of the Shellfish Argument.  Here’s the short version: There were different Hebrew words translated as abomination. They were used differently in the individual verses and were used very differently in broader contexts. The associated sins had radically different consequences and had 100% different treatments in the New Testament.  So the Jack Black / theologically liberal types are simply wrong.

From the Jack Black video:

The “Christian” characters: “Doesn’t the Bible say these people are an abomination?”

Jack Black as Jesus: “It says the exact same thing about this shrimp cocktail . . . The Bible says a lot of things . . .”

The “Christian” characters: “We ignore those verses.”

Non-Christian characters: ” . . . you pick and choose.”

The irony is that we accept all the verses as the word of God.  The ones who “pick and choose” are the Dalmatian Theologians who think the Bible is inspired in spots and that they are inspired to spot the spots, or that God is changing spots or adding spots (and, oddly enough, only telling them).  They quote what they like then dismiss what they don’t by saying thinks like, “the Bible doesn’t say which books belong in the Bible, so we just don’t know what parts belong.”

The literalists are the ones like Jack Black & Co. who don’t read in context. 

A summary of what the Bible really says about this topic:

  • 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
  • 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
  • 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
  • 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
Again, don’t get angry, get educated.  Or get angry and educated.  These people are throwing all sorts of nonsense like this at the real church.  How will we respond?  With “dignified” surrenders, where we just opt out of the conversations?  Or with the truth?
———-

Here’s a thorough analysis by James White.

Also see: Problems with pro-gay theology and Responding to pro-gay theology 

Al Mohler had a good response to the Newsweek article.

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The real haters and responding to their inconsistency

hate.jpgMs. Green has some videos of truly hateful behavior by the anti-Proposition 8 folks.  Yet it is the Christians who are continually referred to as haters.  Sure, Fred Phelps and his ilk are haters and they call themselves Christian, but their behavior displays about as much fruit as their counterparts on the Left.  And the demonstrators on the Left far outnumber the Phelps-types. 

The Left uses the “hate” accusation reflexively to try to demonize and silence the opposition.  It is amazing that the hate label sticks to us when we actually take a live and let live approach to gays. We just don’t like it when they shove their agenda down our throats.

I’ve known for a long time that their theme of “tolerance” was an upside down use of the word.  You can only tolerate those you disagree with, and these people show no tolerance at all.

Here is one line of thinking to use in responding to the spurious “hate” personal attacks. 

If you want to disarm the liberals, just point out that if homosexuality could be detected in utero that you would be against those abortions, and ask them if they would agree to make those abortions illegal.  If heterosexual parents abort for Down Syndrome, gender, inconvenience, etc. I guarantee you that most parents would abort rather than have a potentially gay child (I wouldn’t).

I’ve asked this question many times and I have yet to find a heterosexual liberal who doesn’t love abortion rights more than gays. So this argument is a great way to make them squirm and to point out how ridiculous it is for them to label you as a homophobe. After all, they think it should be legal to destroy gays in the womb (even hypothetically) while you think they should be protected.

The most I’ve ever seen them say in response is that I’m against all abortions, so specific protections for gays isn’t meaningful. But I point out that if this was the only restriction made that I’d favor it.  You shouldn’t kill an innocent human being because he is gay or even might be gay.

It also forces them to reconsider their pro-abortion views, because it points out how the unborn are real human beings. That is one reason they fight any exceptions, even for gender selection abortions. They know that once you concede the humanity of the unborn for any reason then other abortions wouldn’t be justified.

If you do Venn diagrams of pro-legalized abortionists and pro-gay agenda folks, you’ll see virtually concentric circles. 

Authentic Christians do not hate these people.  Watch the videos and see.  But the truth sounds like hate to those that hate the truth.  And those that are pro-legalized abortion and pro-gay marriage are in deep rebellion to God.

I explored this more in a hypothetical dilemma.

I know that the “rights” talk makes for a good sound bite, but what rights are we talking about? The right to relationships? They have them. The right to be married? Uh, sorry, but they already have the right to marry a living being of the opposite sex of the same species under certain conditions (i.e., no incest, bestiality, polygamy or necrophilia). And who are they to pull up the drawbridge after gays get these “rights” and leave the other groups hanging?  Do they hate them?  Why else would they oppose their rights?

I thought this was a great summary by Invictus, who previously had been inclined to try and support gay civil marriage:

You know, I’m not really inclined to support the creation of a new “right”–one that has never existed in all of human history–on behalf of a people who so easily take up the mantle of thuggish oppression as soon as they are given space to do so.  Does anyone (idiots and liars excluded) really think that teams of police would be required to escort gay couples safely out of neighborhoods full of violent Mormons screaming death threats?

Oh the humanity! UPDATED

Update: Be sure to read Playing the Race Card on Gay Marriage.  Carlotta highlights some of the absurdities of the pro-LGBTQ movement.  They have a lot of nerve trying to co-opt the Civil Rights movement.  From the article she analyzed:

Well, let’s see. The civil rights once denied to black Americans included the right to register as a voter, the right to cast a ballot, the right to use numerous public facilities, the right to get a fair hearing in court, the right to send their children to an integrated public school, and the right to equal opportunity in housing and employment. Have gay people been denied any of these rights? Have they been forced to sit in the back of buses? Confined to segregated neighborhoods? Barred from serving on juries? Subjected to systematic economic exploitation?

Then there’s this from Verum Serum:

Oddly enough, I haven’t been able to find one gay activist/gay rights spokesperson who has been able to articulate HOW these two are the same.

Let me give it a shot…

The history of blacks in the United States begins with slavery and continues on to various forms of societal discrimination that has included:  denial of voting rights, denial of property ownership rights, denial of equity in education, denial of access to public facilities, denial of access to businesses, denial of equal access to public transportation, etc.

Homosexuals in the United States have had to endure…society’s refusal to allow them to change the definition of marriage.

You know what?  The homosexuals are RIGHT.  They are EXACTLY the same as blacks!  Viva la Revolucion!

At times I’m tempted to say, go ahead and give them “gay marriage.” The sooner they get all they think they want the sooner they’ll realize that they are still miserable and separated from God.

The problem is that one of the things on their laundry list is to silence the church, because the Bible will always be a constant reminder that they aren’t fooling God.  And I’m not keen on giving up the church just yet.

hindenbergA post titled When MY Generation Speaks by a 30-ish liberal friend railed against people in favor of Proposition 8 in California. 

This entry is not to argue the inherent rights of gays to marry – not because there aren’t plenty of people who would love to debate this but because the debate would change nothing. Exit polling clearly indicates people make this decision based on dogma, not on logic – and if I have learned one thing in life, it is that reasoning with dogma is like talking to a wall. 

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too, with dogma such as, “Haters!  Irrational!  Uneducated!  You want to send gays to internment camps!  You’re forcing your religion on us!  Of course we wouldn’t teach kindergarteners about this!  Etc.!”

Here is some logic for those who are interested:

  • Same sex unions can never provide a mother and a father to a child, so the State has no interest in promoting or regulating them.
  • Marriage is a union of a man and a woman.
  • Gay couples already get benefits from the State of California.  This was all about affirmation.
  • The judges ignored the will of the people, so the amendment made perfect sense.
  • Sexual preferences are not Civil Rights.  Skin color is morally neutral, sexual behavior is not. 
  • Oxymoronic “same sex marriage” doesn’t mean that marriage is redefined as man/woman, woman/woman or man/man, it redefines it to say that it is not just between a man and a woman — it is whatever anyone wants to define it to be.  The same “anti-discrimination” rationale is immediately available for polygamists, incestuous couples, etc.

Note that I didn’t even refer to the Bible.  If people want to know what God has to say — and they should, since He created the universe and us — here’s a summary:

  • 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
  • 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
  • 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
  • 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
  • In short, to advance “same sex marriage” is to be perpetually shaking your fist at God in rebellion.

Here’s more from the other blogger:

That the proposition passed is an injustice and is unjustifiable – but look to the horizon. People, especially the dogmatized, fear that which is different – that which they do not understand. Just as the elderly and the dogmatized were the most fervent opponents of desegregation and of women’s suffrage, they are holding back progress on this issue – the civil rights issue of my generation. But my generation will have the last word, and years from now, when gay rights are considered as inalienable as the rights of blacks and women, we will look back with shame and confusion at those who stood against the tide of equality.

Actually, we do understand it.  We don’t fear what is different, we fear what it will do to innocent people and the structure of the foundation of society.

And as usual this guy and his bigoted, shameful generation pull up the drawbridge on people with different sexual preferences.  They pat themselves on the back for supporting gay rights but ignore preferences of others.

What about the “Civil Rights” of  those who want polygamy, incest, bestiality, necrophilia, and who knows what else?  If marriage is not just for a man and a woman, then who says it has to be just for humans, or just for two people,  or just for non-siblings, or just for living people, etc.?  The reasoning for same sex unions would apply to them as well.  And don’t tell me that judges wouldn’t rationalize those.  Any group that can see unlimited abortion rights in the Constitution has a remarkable — albeit perverted — creative streak.

I realize how tempting it is for people to insist that those who disagree with them are irrational bigots, but the facts do not support their arguments.

I am glad that his generation has the right to speak and I concede that they may get their way at the ballot box someday.  I just hope that more of his generation exercise their right to think critically as well.

You can really feel the love and tolerance

I wouldn’t judge the pro-gay lobby groups on just a few comments of their followers.  But I would judge them for how they react to these comments.  See ‘Gay’ threats target Christians over same-sex ‘marriage’ ban.  Where are the proponents of hate speech laws now?  What could be more hateful and likely to incite violence against someone for their beliefs?

Of course if the opposite of this happened then the mainstream media would be all over it.  I’ll be watching to see how they cover – or don’t cover – these threats.

Decisions by voters in Florida, Arizona and California to join residents of 27 other states with constitutional protections for traditional marriage have prompted threats of violence against Christians and their churches.

“Burn their f—ing churches to the ground, and then tax the charred timbers,” wrote “World O Jeff” on the JoeMyGod blogspot today within hours of California officials declaring Proposition 8 had been approved by a margin of 52 percent to 48 percent. Confirmation on voter approval of amendments in Florida and Arizona came earlier.

On a blog website, “Tread” wrote, “I hope the No on 8 people have a long list and long knives.”

Another contributor to the JoeMyGod website said, “While financially I supported the Vote No, and was vocal to everyone and anyone who would listen, I have never considered being a violent radical extremist for our equal rights. But now I think maybe I should consider becoming one. Perhaps that is the only thing that will affect the change we so desperately need and deserve.”

A contributor identifying himself as “Joe” said, “I swear, I’d murder people with my bare hands this morning.”

“This is not just a matter of some people blowing off steam because they’re not happy with a political outcome. This is criminal activity,” he said. “The homosexual lobby is always calling for ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ and playing the role of victim. They claim to deplore violence and ‘hate.’ Here we have homosexuals inciting, and directly threatening, violence against Christians.”

On the “Queerty” website, “Stenar” asked, “Can someone in CA please go burn down the Mormon temples there, PLEASE. I mean seriously. DO IT.”

“I’m going to give them something to be f—ing scared of. … I’m a radical who is now on a mission to make them all pay for what they’ve done,” wrote “Jonathan.”

Liberty Counsel’s Barber said, “This is not free speech; these are ‘hate crimes’ under the existing definition. Imagine if Christian websites were advocating such violence against homosexuals. There’d be outrage, and rightfully so. It’d be national front-page news. Federal authorities should immediately investigate these threats and prosecute the perpetrators to the fullest extent of the law.”

On yet another site, “Americablog,” “scottinsf” wrote, “Trust me. I’ve got a big list of names of mormons and catholics that were big supporters of Prop 8. … As far as mormons and catholics … I warn them to watch their backs.”

“I hope they all rot in hell, those servants of a lying, corrupt devil! BAN RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM,” wrote Angelo.

One contributor went so far as to threaten to take out his frustrations on his own family.

“You want me to come back to Idaho for Christmas? Oh wait, my partner and I can’t share the same bed? We can’t show any affection or any outward sign of our love for each other? Well sorry family … no Uncle Adam and all his expensive gifts and delicious cooking for you. Your childrens’ presents will now be donations in their name to the equal rights organization of my choosing. As will their and your birthday presents, wedding presents, graduation presents, and everything else I give going forward.”

The writer continued, “Remember, I’m angry. And I’m strong from my years at the gym and really am ready to take my frustration out on someone or something.”

Barber said the Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and “other leaders within the homosexual lobby” should call immediately for an end to such threats.

There were suggestions of a different type of violence, too.

“Hope the gay waiters at their hotel p—ed in all the drinks they served these cretins,” “Jake” wrote about protectors of traditional marriage.

“If you’re planning a heterosexual wedding in California … be prepared for picketers. Designate someone to watch the parking lot … You’re going to have lots of unexpected expenses. Add $500 to your budget for security. … Be prepared for the flowers not lasting to the reception or the tuxedos showing up two sizes too small or the music at the reception being a way too loud or the cake tasting a little funny,” stated another threat. “Be afraid. Be very afraid. We are everywhere.”

Another even listed addresses of Mormon facilities. Mormon, Catholic and other religious groups were active in supporting the marriage definition.

“I do not openly advocate firebombing or vandalism. What you do with the information is your own choice,” wrote Jeremy.

Who was the biggest funder of the anti-prop 8 movement?

Unions.  The most damning and frustrating thing about this is that the liars on the anti-prop 8 movement insist that it won’t impact education (even though that has been easily disproven).  So why would these educational “leaders” put so much money into this?  They spent more than Ellen.

Here’s a pop quiz: Who’s donated the most money to an effort in California to defeat Proposition 8, an initiative on the November 4 ballot that would define marriage as between a man and a woman in the state?

A) Gay-advocacy organizations

B) Civil-rights groups

C) The California Teachers Association

If you guessed “C,” you understand the nature of modern liberal politics. And if you didn’t, perhaps you’re wondering what exactly gay marriage has to do with K-12 public education. The high school dropout rate is 1-in-4 in California and 1-in-3 in the Los Angeles public school system, odds that worsen considerably among black and Hispanic children. So you might think the CTA, the state’s largest teachers’ union, would have other priorities.

Yet last week the union donated $1 million to the “No on Proposition 8” campaign. Of the roughly $3 million raised by opponents of the measure so far, $1.25 million has come from the teachers’ union. “What does this cause have to do with education?” said Randy Peart, a public school teacher in San Juan who was contacted by a local television station. “Why not put that money into classrooms, into making a better place for these kids?”

It will get worse under an Obama administration.  There are falsely named initiatives to prevent secret ballots and force union membership.

Random thoughts – updated

Election burnout – Some good thoughts on that here.  For Christians, nothing should steal our joy in Christ except our own sins, and then only until we confess and remind ourselves of God’s forgiveness.

If McCain loses, God is still in control and Jesus is still the unchanging rock.  We’ll be sad for all the people who will be hurt by Obama’s awful policies, but we know that God can work through anything sinful man does and accomplish what He desires.

If Obama loses, his followers will have lost their man-made messiah, but we’ll still have our real Messiah.

Having said that, I actually wish the campaign could go on longer, because it would improve McCain’s chances.  I wish he could make another trip through Pennsylvania and other coal-producing states after Obama repeatedly said they would bankrupt the coal industry.

Palin has more experience than Obama, but even if she didn’t it shouldn’t be an issue for liberals.  After all, aren’t they pro-affirmative action?  Why raise the drawbridge just for her? 

Voter fraud – Once again, we see real, live voter fraud (a la ACORN) from the Democrats – including people from Obama’s campaign – but the MSM focuses almost exclusively on hypothetical Republican fraud.  The games from team Obama are well documented, but the media ignores them.

I view the whole thing as a toss-up at this point, given that polls are almost always too favorable for Democrats.  But the MSM is 180 degrees off on the voter fraud issue, and that will set up the Democrats for major disappointment and rioting should McCain win.  After all, they all “know” Obama already won, so the only way McCain could win is by cheating, right?

Bad arguments for same-sex unions.

I just heard a typical and bad retort to opponents of same-sex marriage:  I’m not telling them what to do, why should they tell me what to do? 

Uh, because that’s what the government is – us.  (Does “We the people…” sound familiar?)  So in making same-sex legal you ARE telling us what to do:  Accept, support, protect, and subsidize something we have rational and moral objection to, isn’t good for children or society, is a public contract and covenant as marriage not just a bedroom arrangement, and has no historical or moral precedent in human history.  And you’ll use the force of government and law to tell me what to do.  Now that doesn’t sound very tolerant.

Gay pledge cards given to kindergarteners

As I mentioned in We told you so, even while the GLBT lobby is on their best behavior pending the vote on Proposition 8, we see more and more examples of their supporters doing the opposite of what they claimed would happen: Aggressive indoctrination of youth as young as kindergarten.

During a celebration of National Ally Week, Tara Miller, a teacher at the Faith Ringgold School of Arts and Science in Hayward, Calif., passed out cards produced by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network to her class of kindergartners.

The cards asked signers to be “an ally” and to pledge to “not use anti-LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) language or slurs; intervene, when I feel I can, in situations where others are using anti-LGBT language or harassing other students and actively support safer schools efforts.”

More here.

Do 5 year olds really need to be thinking about homosexuals? About bi-sexuals? About transgenders?   Kindergarteners can’t even understand those concepts. Their innocence should not be stolen with such filth.

It will only get worse. They’ve been holding back until after the vote on Proposition 8 is done.  If it doesn’t pass, they’ll be much more aggressive.  If you don’t believe me, ask yourself if you ever would have imagined kindergarteners being given such things?  Did you expect to see first graders taken to a lesbian wedding on a field trip?  Did you expect kindergarteners to have a “gay day” at school without parental notification?

If you are in California, vote Yes on 8!

Hat tip: Confessions of a Recovering Pharisee